From: Rebecca and Rowland (rebecca@ASTRID.U-NET.COM)
Date: 11 Oct 98, 09:14 EST
From: Rebecca and Rowland <rebecca@ASTRID.U-NET.COM>
Subject: J. Guyer: libeller extraordinary was Re: "Rude" behavior by developers
I think I should start by saying that I'm very annoyed that Jonathan has
decided to post such a grotesque series of lies about me. I have (in
private email) tried to correct his misunderstandings, but he has
point-blank refused to consider the idea that he might have mis-understood
me.
To begin with, at no time have I ever said that Alpha-D subscribers are
rude and unresponsive. Not in private email to Jonathan, and not on the
oztex-info mailing list or anywhere else.
>Much to my consternation, I've been having an abominably lengthy
>correspondance with Roland (now over; don't bother writing directly to me,
>Roland, because I won't answer). Most of this has consisted of us talking
>past each other.
Not quite: *you* have ignored what I've said and refused to try and
understand the points I've been trying to make.
> It should come as no surprise that Roland finds us rude
>and unresponsive (it may come as a surprise that he has seen fit to say so
>on oztex-info and perhaps elsewhere).
This is a damned lie.
I have *NOT* said that the Alpha-D subscribers are rude on the oztex-info
mailing list. Nor have I said that the Alpha-D subscribers are rude in
general.
What Jonathan is referring to is this:
He has told me that when a problem is brought up on the Alpha-D mailing
list, that this problem is noted by Alpha's developers, and put on the `bug
list' for dealing with. Jonathan has told me that it's a waste of
bandwidth for these developers to mention the fact that they've done so on
the mailing list.
It's my opinion - which I have mentioned (before now) *ONLY TO JONATHAN AND
NO-WHERE ELSE* - that this one behaviour only is rude. I do not think that
people who post to the Alpha-D list `are' rude; nor do I think that
individuals who actually behave in this fashion `are' rude: it's just this
single behaviour that I'm objecting to.
>To the extent that this problem is
>limited to Roland: oh well. He claims, however, to represent the views of
>other Alpha users who,
This is also a damned lie: it's pure invention on Jonathan's part. I have
never claimed this.
> for whatever reasons, do not voice their opinions
>themselves [Whomever you are, I urge you to speak for yourselves;
You might note that very few non-tcl-developing Alpha users are subscribed
to the Alpha-D list.
> Roland
>has not convinced me that I am rude, but rather that he is. Perhaps you can
>succeed where he has failed].
>
>One particular behavior which Roland finds so "rude" is that he doesn't get
>a post from the person "responsible" for fixing a reported bug, saying that
>they "intend" to work on it.
Yet another bloody lie.
> I have tried to explain to him that this does
>not happen out of rudeness, but for good reasons, but he either flatly
>disagrees with my assertions or does not give any indication that he
>understands what I'm saying. Although Roland agrees that nobody here owes
>him anything, he still thinks it's rude when he doesn't get what he wants.
Lies, lies, and more lies.
Note the following: no matter what Jonathan might have said about me (and
he's demonstrated that he's either not got a clue about me; either that, or
he's deliberately libeling me), I do not think that I am owed anything by
Alpha's developers. If it so happens that *any* action is taken as a
result of my posts to the Alpha-D mailing list, I will be very grateful.
If, on the other hand, it so happens that *no* action is taken as a result
of my posts to the Alpha-D mailing list, I won't mind in the slightest.
What I think is rude is this situation, which Jonathan assures me exists:
an Alpha developer putting a bug on the `bug fix' list, but not mentioning
the fact to whoever posted the problem.
That is all I mean when I say `rude' - I don't expect anything beyond a
short `Got that' message from someone who does this. I do *NOT* expect a
result of any sort - simply a message indicating that, if the problem has
been placed on the bug list, that it's been placed on the bug list. That
message and nothing else.
If, on the other hand, it turns out that no-one has noted a given problem
on the bug list, I'm not in the slightest bit bothered if there is no
response.
Under no circumstances do I expect anything except communication from the
Alpha-D list subscribers; and the only time I expect communication at all
is in this one case. I expect nothing else. I've tried to get this idea
across to Jonathan, but he's refused to try to understand, preferring to
attack me, first in private email, and now in public.
[snip]
>* I believe Roland has created a false dichotomy between "users" and
>"developers". We are all users. Some of us happen to write Tcl.
I haven't created any such thing. There are Alpha users who write tcl and
write Alpha: these are Alpha developers. There are Alpha users who don't
write tcl: these are Alpha users. I didn't create that dichotomy: it just
happens to exist.
> I fiercly
>reject the notion of being saddled with the responsibility for being "in
>charge" of Alpha's Tcl code.
No-one has suggested that you (or anyone else) are `in charge' that I know
of. I certainly haven't.
[snip]
>
>What do others think of explicitly changing Alpha-D's name or charter to
>indicate that it is a forum for users to talk to other users, not a place
>for "normal users" (Roland's words) to come as supplicants to some Tcl
>Olympus (my words)? If I'm going to be forced to be a god, then I demand
>the right to smite Roland with lightning bolts at my whim.
Alternatively, why not just calm down a bit and try a bit of polite,
normal, human communication? I quite like the idea of Alpha users being
able to report problems with Alpha somewhere that is of some use: that is,
somewhere that Alpha tcl developers will read the problems and take some
note.
I do *NOT* have any vision of some tcl Olympus - just a place that problems
can be reported and maybe fixed one day. Nothing more than that. But...
For such a forum to work, it's essential that it invoFrom owner-alpha-d@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU Sun Oct 11 02:21:22 1998
References: <v0313030db2452a3eed68@[10.0.0.2]> <v03130305b241748fa243@[130.237.37.51]> <l03130303b24153650313@[194.119.133.20]> <Pine.OSF.4.03.9809210755260.10068-100000@login1.fas.harvard.edu> <l03130300b22b5371f77e@[195.102.194.102]>
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Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:21:51 -0400
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From: Jonathan Guyer <jguyer@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: J. Guyer: libeller extraordinary was Re: "Rude" behavior by
developers
To: ALPHA-D@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b2458ec7c82b@[194.119.133.8]>
Wow. I'm a big fat liar. And a meany, to boot, I'm sure. How will I ever
live with myself?
I have no qualms being judged by my two-year record on this list. I have no
qualms with Roland being judged by his record, either.
Let me clarify a misconception in Roland's post (The misconception is my
fault. I did not lie to him, nor even intentionally mislead him (sorry
Bill), but I was obviously not as clear as I should have been): Aside from
the list in "Bug Reports and Debugging", there is no _official_ list that I
know of. Whatever list, database, record, or vague sense of Alpha problems
that I maintain is only seen by me. As such, it's of questionable
significance because I won't ever get around to dealing with many of those
problems (often I don't even know how). It's clear to me that other Tcl
authors similarly maintain an informal sense of what's wrong with Alpha.
When I told Roland that his problems were "on the list" it was to convey to
him that his messages _are_ read and noted. They are. Believe that they
are.
Let me put it this way: Alpha-D _is_ the list. By definition, when Roland
(or anybody else) reports a problem to Alpha-D, that problem is "on the
list". I, for one, am not transcribing these problems anywhere (if and when
the bug-tracking system I discussed is implemented, this will change, but I
expect not until then).
The fact that Roland gets troubleshooting advice and solutions from the
list should be ample evidence that his posts are being read and dealt with
as feasible. Judge us by whether we solve your problems, not by some
contrived standard of etiquette.
__________________________________________________________________
Jonathan E. Guyer
<http://www.his.com/jguyer/>